HDBI Podcast

Podcast transcript: Made the Same Way

Episode 2: History is always happening now

Oneda

You're listening to Made the Same Way, the podcast for those who are curious about how we humans are made. My name is Oneda. I'm a rapper, producer and songwriter from Manchester and in this series, we’re discovering how we get from a fertilised egg to a fully functioning human being. To answer this, I've teamed up with HDBI, that's the Human Developmental Biology Initiative to explore science in a brand-new way. Each episode will bring together one emerging artist and one knowledgeable researcher to discuss science, life and music. And at the end of each episode, the pair will have a limited amount of time to collaborate on an original piece inspired by their conversation.

Karis Jade

Do you think that science can ever answer the question of what makes us human?

Emma

I'd love to say that it can because I love science, but I suspect - I suspect we're pushing the limit here - no, we can't.

Oneda

In episode one of Made the Same Way -that was the last episode-, Emma and Karis discussed all things human developmental biology. We discovered what it means and why it's important. If you haven't heard that one yet, I recommend that you go back and listen, and then meet us back here.

Nick

What human embryology has done is tell us all where we come from.

Oneda

In this episode, Nick, a science historian, meets Princess Ari, a trip-hop single rapper and poet from Manchester. They are discussing the history of human developmental biology, how was our knowledge of this area changed and how do we do things differently today.

Princess Ari

Hello Nick.

Nick

Hello Princess. How are you?

Princess Ari

I'm great. How are you? How's your day been?

Nick

It's been alright. Just doing a bit of writing in the morning, because I'm a historian so we do quite a lot of that. Yeah. I was also thinking about talking to you, but I've been looking forward to. And you, what have you done?

Princess Ari

I've literally been like reading some poetry. I always like to start my day reading poetry. Like it sets my dear, good, good vibration. Do you often write in the morning?

Nick

Yeah. Morning is my best time for writing. So I try and do. And writing is the hardest thing. I imagine it is for you with the poetry, so I want to do that when I'm fresher. So, I'm like caffeinated and awaken. Yeah.

Princess Ari

Are you morning person?

Nick

I definitely am a morning person.

Princess Ari

A little. But I'm like the opposite. Like after, like in the mornings are always like trying to convince myself to like stay alive. I'm like ‘Oh well, I'm awake’. Oh gosh, the whole day ahead. Swimming.

Nick

Yeah, my wife is more like you, which is challenging.

Princess Ari

Yeah, that's why, isn't it? Can you describe your job to me, your day to day as a science historian?

Nick

Yeah, so there's a lot of reading, that’s a lot of reading old books, journal articles, newspapers also printed, material, but also quite a bit of going to archives and reading manuscripts. And I also work quite a lot with visual culture, so I look at a lot of images, flat material, but I also go to museums and look at models and things like that. And then I, the great thing is that then you learn these things, you see different perspectives and then you can weave it into stories.

Princess Ari

So, you're storyteller as well.

Nick

Well, well, in a sense, yes.

Princess Ari

I love that.

Nick

I mean, you know, because it's quite an academic sort of job, a lot of it's about the analysis. But, if you can wrap that up in a good story, then that is going to get people much more interested.

Princess Ari

What's your favourite thing about your job that you do?

Nick

I really like discovering things. I mean, people sometimes think, you know, in history it's kind of all happened. So, there's nothing to discover, unlike in science. But actually, you can have these moments where you find something that really changes your perspective and therefore you think maybe will change other people’s perspective.

Princess Ari

That's amazing, I feel like history is always happening now. So, it kind of links to that. I feel like as the historian, you are always discovering new things or approaching something you already knew in a different way because you have to dig deep into the knowledge, which is fascinating, I think.

Nick

So, it's not a bit like is that a bit like with poetry, cause I certainly imagine there's a lot of digging deep. But maybe it's more within yourself?

Princess Ari

Yeah, within yourself, in the environment, like it's really about storytelling, like what you were talking about before, being inspired, letting life inspire you. I'm constantly digging deep and being reflective, and science fascinates me as well. As someone who actually has a condition -sickle cell-, which is a genetic condition, this subject is quite fascinating for me in learning about myself but also other people.

Nick

I was at the seminar last night that a colleague was giving in my department and one of the people who was there on Zoom was the son of a specialist ‘sickle cell’, now retired but who had worked in Manchester.

Princess Ari

That’s interesting! All the nurses I know, like sickle cell specific nurses, have been so lovely to me. I feel like specialisms in science is so important as well, like for the whole of the society to be healthy, we need to like recognise peoples differences and how people can be affected by the environment. And also, the genetic conditions people have and how obviously in countries up in Africa. If you have sickle cell, you have a very low life expectancy compared to if you're in the West, even though they don't have much research for us. It is a condition that mainly affects ethnic minorities, so there's not that pushed to solve it.

Nick

No, that that's been one of the huge problems with history, you know. Comparing sickle cells and say cystic fibrosis and they have very different history of resources that have gone into it.

Princess Ari

Is there any ethical concerns when it comes to the type of science you're interested in?

Nick

One of the main issues in human embryology has been the challenge of obtaining the embryos for scientists to work on. Because, unlike with other animals, you know, say frog spawn that develops outside the body and is very easy to study, obviously you can't do that with humans. So, it's very hidden, so a very hidden process. So, what can be done has been extremely dependent on access to material that the mostly originally came from pregnancy losses from miscarriages, spontaneous abortions, occasionally from post mortems of women who turned out to be in the early stages of pregnancy. This is the time if you think thinking back to the 19th century when unmarried motherhood was very socially stigmatising. Women committing suicide almost was a tip off that there might be an embryo there. Now there's quite a bit more to say about the ethics and quite a lot of that is to do with how they obtained the material. So, as far as we can tell, a lot of the time the women involved had no idea what was happening to the embryos and foetuses. What we do know is something about a particularly interesting and in some ways troubling project in the United States.

Princess Ari

Human experiments?

Nick

Well, it's a little bit like that. I mean if I if I tell you so is how they did obtain the first specimens through those first two weeks of development. The problem was, we are talking about very tiny objects and when they were looking in the uterus or fallopian tubes, there's lots of other stuff there, and it's very difficult to know what you're seeing. So they wanted to increase the chance of finding something. So at a clinic in Boston, they arranged that women who were waiting for operations that were not urgent but they did need. So they wait, they are waiting several months to have, to have hysterectomies, or at least part of their reproductive system removed, to relieve pain and for other reasons. They organised that those women would keep charts of their periods and whenever they had sex and in the months before the operation. And then when the operation was being scheduled, the technician involved would say to the woman, could you maybe arrange to have sex with your husband on this day? And that way they have an idea of the age of the embryo if that was a successful conception. These were women who already had several children, so they knew they were fertile and yeah, and then the operation would be done. And then they could look with more confidence of finding something at the organs that were removed. And they did find several early embryos. It would now kind of seem like organising abortions to order.

Princess Ari

Can I ask a question? This is a bit controversial, but I feel like it would be interesting because of. Do you like some people from some backgrounds might have a bit of a distrust of like some science and stuff? Is it true that, like some of the early scientists operated on enslaved women? Cause I've heard of that.

Nick

Yes.

Princess Ari

That's true. OK.

Nick

It is, and even much more generally, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the people who were in hospitals were generally not the wealthy, the upper classes.

Princess Ari

So, working classes.

Nick

Yeah, so the power relations are very unequal. I mean, if you think even now doctors have a certain authority. But things were very unequal and so much more paternalistic.

Princess Ari

Oh yes. I have heard some of the female’s anatomy is named after male scientists, which is interesting.

Nick

Yeah, because they were the anatomists who were all men at that time. Yeah.

Princess Ari

That’s fascinating. How do you think that has changed? From then to now, like how obtaining these embryos, I assume they'll be more ethical concerns and like checklists to take for scientists. But was the process of that?

Nick

So now it's very different. So, embryos and foetuses are collected from people having terminations, but in a framework of informed consent, where everything is done above board and the donors very much know what was happening. The decision to have a termination or other procedures and the decision about whether or not something might be donated, those decisions are separate, and then if someone agrees to donate, then they can change their mind at any point. One of the really big changes is in the middle of the 20th century, when it becomes possible to see living embryos and foetuses, very early stages when they learn to culture human embryos, like for assisted reproduction, in vitro fertilisation and also ultrasound.

Princess Ari

Oh, wow. Yes, that's important.

Nick

So, there are different ways of making the images. Something that's a constant theme and is really important in thinking about what embryologists are doing, is the way that the different images relate to each other. They come in series because they're always trying to show how an embryo or foetus develops. It's about change overtime and so they're doing that by arranging the images that they make in these developmental series, in series of images that get progressively more advanced.

Princess Ari

And the hope is to like understand better how the foetus is developing. And hopefully intercept any potential mutations or?

Nick

Well, perhaps eventually. First in a way it's a huge challenge and just to describe the process, yeah, because I mean until the middle of the 20th century, no one had ever seen the first two weeks of human development from conception. So that's kind of how unknown it still was, even quite recently.

Princess Ari

In in terms of Britain, what were our contributions to this science?

Nick

Not so much as far as what I've been talking about so far. The thing that does happen in Britain and actually not far from where you're sitting now, is the birth of the first so-called test tube baby.

Princess Ari

Fascinating. That's so fascinating.

Nick

Do you know where she was born?

Princess Ari

No, let me know please. This is so interesting.

Nick

She was she was born in Oldham.

Princess Ari

Oh wow, the first test tube baby.

Nick

Yeah, in 1978. She's now a woman called Louise Brown. So test tube baby in the sense that an egg from her mother and a sperm from the father were mixed in a dish and then an embryo grew from that, and then that was replaced in her uterus in her womb.

Princess Ari

So, IVF?

Nick

Exactly. So that's the invention of IVF. Yeah. It was a huge news story. Oldham was mobbed by reporters from all over the world and the next day there's a press conference in Manchester and the picture of the baby is then on the front page of every newspaper in the world. So, it really put the Northwest on the map of this science. And what that meant was that IVF was possible, and it also meant that embryos were being produced from eggs and sperm, and during the 1980s there were then debates about the ethics of research on those, and in 1990, a law is passed that says that it's OK under quite strict regulations to do research up to 14 days from fertilisation and a lot has been learned from that.

Princess Ari

Fascinating that literally revolutionised the family planning process. Obviously, that would create some ethical concerns.

Nick

There's also a whole thing about what's the difference between an embryo and a foetus, and what's the difference between a foetus and a baby. And I mean that is a kind of official answer, which would be something like the developing human is an embryo either from conception or from the second week of gestation up to the end of the 8th week. And then once it's kind of got all main bits, you know, little arms and little legs and so on, then it's a foetus and it stays a foetus until it's born. And then when it's born, it becomes a baby.

Princess Ari

That's fascinating. OK!

Nick

One of the reasons this is not just interesting, but also has been very controversial is that for people who are opposed to abortion, they often talk about foetus as though it is already a baby. And so that helps to muddy the waters and is one reason why I think it's actually quite important to be quite clear about that. That distinction. Yeah. But of course also, you know, in IVF. When people are hoping to become parents, you know they're often allowed to see the embryos before they're put back. And they're sort of thinking, wow, that one of those could be my baby. And so there is this kind of there are these slippages between the different terms.

Princess Ari

That's fascinating. With all the information we've learned through scientific discovery, how have we been able to, like, benefit people historically? Like, what are the things women had to deal with in the past that now science has more than understanding and can kind of like help in terms of human development?

Nick

What human embryology has done is tell us all where we come from. I mean, you know, when we think about how did they come to be here?

Princess Ari

I think that's really true. It does. To know that we were an egg and sperm, and then now a person is actually wild, and it is like the origins like knowing the origins of man that's important. Linked to that in terms of like paradigm shifts. And we've kind of touched on it, but not as intensely as I wanted to. How has things changed?

Nick

I suppose in terms of really big turning points, there's a big shift in the decades around 1800. So in the period of the French Revolution, when anatomists start to show developmental series of human embryos and foetuses for the first time. And so development becoming what everything is about, that's a really important and kind of very general shift across the sciences. But maybe especially with embryology, is that the lead science is the kind of paradigm of development. And then I think yes, the shift to a much more rigorous, challenging way of doing the anatomy and then at that time they're also learning to make a new kind of model of embryos by taking the little embryo and slicing it up, completely slicing it up on a with a special kind of knife called a microtome. And then putting those sections, those slices on glass microscope slides. And then drawing the outlines of the structures on the slides, very magnified. And transferring those outlines to wax plates and stacking those up. And then making a wax model like 3D dimensional wax model of the embryo, but with lots of details because it's gone through the microscopy, including being able to represent structures inside. So that's definitely a big turning point. And I think if I had to choose one more, then it would be the invention of culturing embryos in glass or in vitro. Yeah, being able to do that for the early stages. And then that's linked to IVF. And that gave a kind of access and made it possible to see what was happening in a living embryo for the first time. So, I suppose those have been major turning points.

Princess Ari

Major turning points, that’s so fascinating. Wow, I'm so fascinated by the fact that, like IVF, was old, and founded that like that's so cool and just discovering other things we used to think was true about embryology and like human development and all the things we've moved on from. And even ethically, you made it very like clear and you were very generous describing these things to someone who's not very sciency.

Nick

Well, thanks for your questions, because it is really interesting to hear how someone who you know doesn't do this for a living, thinks about these questions, because as we've been finding, they are questions that in a way everybody should be interested in, that everyone can relate to in some way.

Princess Ari

Health science in all plays in our lives and mine. I know on a personal level because obviously of sickle cells. But also, even if you don't have a long term health condition, your health and how you came to be should be at the forefront of your mind and it's something that will always be relevant. What is your main takeaway from this conversation?

Nick

As I said before, I think it's been a little bit more, I mean not one sided because I think actually you've shaped it a lot with your questions which have been really brilliant. So, I mean I've learned. Quite a bit about how you see the topic and what you have found, what you've responded to, what you found interesting, and that wasn't always what I expected. I certainly I hadn't thought that you would be so interested in the terminology. I'm really happy about that because I was, you know, that was a bit nerdy of me. But actually, it's fascinating and often quite important because the terminology has been so politicised that it's also mattered quite a lot.

Princess Ari

So let's move on to the creative aspect.

Nick

Have you got some ideas from our talk?

Princess Ari

Yeah, I have some ideas. I'm really excited to get into it. My usual process is like it kind of connects to what we're doing now because my usual process is to just bombard myself with stimulus. And like, feel really immersed, always, sometimes put music on, I'll do lots of reading, I'll listen to things, but yeah, so like I have been bombarded. But by a lot of information, so that helps. So, there's no lack of avenues to try. I'm excited. I want you to be included in the process as well, like even picking some songs like tracks so you can influence the way the vibes of it. The frequencies of the peak.

Nick

Flattered and slightly nervous that you're going to involve me in. The process, but that sounds fun. Yeah.

Princess Ari

Do you have any like musical interests? Like can you play any instruments? Have any favourite musical artists or poets even, anything or?

Nick

I listen to some music, mostly classical. I have to say often instrumental. You know, I quite like say back home piano starters when I'm working.

Princess Ari

Oh, that's nice.

Nick

But, I have a 19 year old daughter, and she's been introducing me to music, a bit closer to your generation’s interests. So, I've heard some Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish and so I'm trying to broaden my tastes a bit there. So what ideas do you have then for the piece?

Princess Ari

I'm thinking of sprinkling some dates in there, important dates because it's all about the history. Talking about Oldham – gotta rep for Manny. I'm talking about the ethical concerns, how everyone's informed, the important work they're continuing to do, and how it affects the individual and the collective. That's where I'm going to explore some dates, some cultural references, talk about America.

Nick

Historians like dates. So, I'm nothing against that. I'm surprised because we're often told dates are a bit boring, but I think you might be right that you need some. So, you've got a framework and people know where they are.

Princess Ari

Yeah. Timelines are important though. Yeah. So, some of the beats didn't resonate, but the ones that did I did picked those. Hopefully one of them resonates for you.

Nick

OK. I have found that quite chilled and I quite liked it, I would say. But maybe I should listen to the others. I think I'm less keen on that. I think maybe I started thinking 3 blind mice and then I found it a little bit difficult to get beyond the initial.

Princess Ari

I love that. I like that.

Nick

I quite like that. I think I still prefer the first one. What do what do you think, Princess is that?

Princess Ari

Yeah, yeah, that's perfect with me. That was actually my preference.

Nick

Ohh good. Well, I'm glad we converge on that. That's yeah. Yeah, I feel happy about that. Yeah.

Princess Ari

Yeah, it was. You are a creative now. This is a collab. OK Nick I need you.

Nick

I'm here.

Princess Ari

So, I'm sorry. I'm very -what's the word?- I'm a very dramatic person. But basically, can you remind me like what was like one of the first inventions? Not inventions, first discoveries in embryology because I want to start with where we've been and what we're coming from. So, what I've got first is: Thinking about the human origin, where we come from, where we've been, it took some time. It didn't change in a blank. So that's what I've got so far, it took some time. It didn't change in a blink because obviously we're trying to get rid of that Eureka idea. So, what was one of the first discoveries that I can now link to a more recent?

Nick

Yeah, and I suppose and saying thinking maybe that's enough of a steer that it's about the history of the thinking.

Princess Ari

Yeah, exactly. Not the actual science, yeah.

Nick

Because obviously the embryo developing takes its time as well. Talking about much, we're talking about centuries and decades here. Yeah. So, the first thing that we talked about was at the very end of the 18th century when the first connected theories of embryos and foetuses, they call them embryos, was produced. They almost start to look like they're developing. I mean, it's just sort of on the cusp of that representation of development.

Princess Ari

So, it's that's the 18th century.

Nick

And end of the 18th century. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around 1800. If you want to date 1799.

Princess Ari

OK. 1799, OK, thank you.

Nick

1799 yeah.

Princess Ari

Can you say for me? “Listen, listen to me. This is the history of embryology”, and that will be the intro of the song. So “listen, listen to me. This is the history of embryology”.

Nick

Listen, listen to me. This is the history of embryology.

Princess Ari

Look, that's your contribution, Nick, you're an MC.

Nick

I mean, it's great. I like that. I see it has to rhyme. The listen to me makes me sound like I think I'm maybe a bit too important, but that's OK. I don't know.

Princess Ari

Maybe put that in the podcast humble. He's so humble as well.

Nick

It's kind of like “roll up roll up”.

Princess Ari

Exactly, Nick. Exactly. Exactly. I think it would be helpful to be for me to have my like emo solitude now, like, pretentious writer solitude. That's like necessary.

Nick

OK. Thank you all and especially you, Princess Ari. That's been fun.

Princess Ari

It's been ready for Nick. Have a lovely day.

Nick

OK. Bye now.

Musical piece (Princess Ari)

Thinking about the human origin, where we come from, where we've been, it took some time. It didn't change in the blank. 1799 science are not intertwined diagrams of the history of you and I. This is real life, not sci-fi. Embryo sketched by the eye until eventually computerised 3D models of what happens inside what it takes to make a life. Now. You recall this took some time. How a clump of cells swells to become the self. To become the self history, our history, our history, our history. How they become? The very history, our history, our history, our history, how to become the be? How did we come to the be? How did we? Yeah.

(Nick)

Listen, listen to me. This is the history of embryology.

(Princess Ari)

Oldham invented IVF in the 70s, a discovery that helped families informed consent around the alchemy of human anatomy, we all started from a pregnancy when the egg and sperm meet. The harmony of biology, our first song the heartbeat, the harmony of biology, our first song the heartbeat.

Oneda

You've been listening to Made the Same Way. Thank you for listening. Next time, we're looking at the very beginnings of life. How does a fertilised egg give rise to all of the cells in the human body. Subscribed to Made the Same Way so that you never miss an episode. And please read and review us on Apple Podcasts to help others find us. Made the Same Way is a Reform Radio production for HDBI, which is funded by Wellcome. It was produced by Olivia Swift with help from Jamie Green.

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