HDBI Podcast

Podcast transcript: Made the Same Way

Episode 3: DNA Dancing like your parents in the kitchen

Oneda

You're listening to Made the Same Way, the podcast for those who are curious about how we humans are made. My name is Oneda. I'm a rapper, producer, songwriter from Manchester, and in this series we're discovering how we get from a fertilised egg to a fully functioning human being. To answer this I've teamed up with HDBI. That's the Human Developmental Biology Initiative to explore science in a brand new way. Each episode will bring together one emerging artist and one knowledgeable researcher to discuss science, life and music. And at the end of each episode, the pair will have a limited amount of time to collaborate on an original piece inspired by their conversation.

Mag

And just, the fact that a single cell can give rise to every cell of the body and every time a cell divides it has to copy all of its DNA.

Oneda

In this episode, we introduce the Mag, a scientist working in Newcastle, and Zara, a poet and rapper from Manchester.

Mag

Hello Zara, Hi.

Zara

Hello!

Oneda

Zara is joining Mag on a journey to discover exactly what happens when a first cell divides after an egg is fertilised by a sperm, and why we need to understand this better. Now this episode may include some discussions of abortion, miscarriage, and infertility, so be cautious and decide if it's something that you'd like to listen to. We've also included some support resources in the episode description.

Zara

Can you describe your job to me, please Mag, what is it that you get up to?

Mag

So I'm a scientist and I'm a professional researcher, so we conduct experiments, we do research, we try to understand the basic biology of human development. I'm actually been sort of an amateur musician, but I've had some interest in music a long time ago. So I'm looking forward to our conversation. And can you can you describe what you do?

Zara

Yeah, of course. So I'm not gonna make myself sound anymore interesting on this front than I am. I am essentially a sales consultant for a fire alarm company. As a kind of a side hustle now, shall we say, a little bit of a second job, I do music as well and I write music. So that's kind of what's brought me here today. You mentioned, didn't you, did you mention you might have been involved in certain things?

Mag

Yeah. I mean, when I was, I finished school in in America...

Zara

Oh, wow. Whereabouts?

Mag

New York actually.

Zara

Oh cool!

Mag

Yeah I had some friends who were very talented. I had this one friend who actually he played the the the guitar, the bass, the piano, the drums, and he sang and he also danced. So he's a very, very gifted guy and and we had this little band in in school and we used to just kind of, you know, these wannabe rock stars that was essentially my, my, my highschool school days.

Zara

Yeah that’s cool.

Mag

But I wasn't talented enough to actually to pursue a career in music. But from what I hear about you, it sounds like you actually are very talents and I’m actually quite curious -

Zara

Well I think with creativity obviously as you know it's very subjective. It's not like what what you do. You're gonna be a master of objectivity and facts and you know empirical based research and things like that. I think obviously with music and and creativity, there is an element of subjectivity there. So, you know, don't downplay yourself. You may well be very, very talented in some people's eyes. Can I just ask, what part of the band did you get involved in?

Mag

Oh, so I was on lead guitar.

Zara

Well, that's still probably more musically inclined than me because I can't play guitar!

What I want to know is how did you get into science?

Mag

Oh, well, that's a good question. Well, I've always really liked science and engineering. You know as a kid actually the thing that I like the most was building Legos. I used to go crazy about them and I think once my parents realised, OK, that I really loved them, they could actually start using it to get grades out of me, good grades.

Zara

Bribing you?

Mag

Yeah if you get an A in mathematics, we'll buy in this Lego set. So I knew that I really liked and I was really fascinated by science and the books, the movies, anything I was reading always had to be sci-fi. So…

Zara

That is amazing. I think that obviously I'm supposed to be like the the artist in this conversation and things like that, but I'm actually massively interested in science.

Mag

So did you enjoy biology in school?

Zara

UM, so in school, like in the first couple of years I started to do really well and I started to move into all the higher sets. I'm not gonna give you a big sob story now, by the way. We'll make this one really quick, but I really like science. And I had a good science teacher called Mr Pearson. But then as time went on, that's when I probably valued the social group more than the education. That's just that was just me. My greatest interest is probably psychology. I don't know whether you're gonna class that as science. I know there's a debate on that. So I actually have a degree in psychology. It's not a very good one, but it's still there. Um and I am interested massively in human behaviour and like the the nature-nurture. So I suppose the nature side of that is a little bit what we're going to be speaking about today. You know in terms of - is it pre like prenatal? Is that the term for what you study?

Mag

So what we studies embryonic development, it's - and the and the the terminology for that particular period of development called pre implantation. So that's usually the first sort of seven days after fertilisation. So when the sperm and the egg come together. So the first seven days after that is sort of pre-implementation, so that's before the embryo can actually implant in the uterus and then start to develop further. So it's a very short period but it seems to be quite important.

Zara

Can you tell me a little bit why it why it is important to look at the embryonic stage?

Mag

Right. That's a very good question. What happens is it's, is really, really complicated, a fertilised egg, once it's frozen by the sperm, it's just a single cell. And that cell undergoes many, many divisions, so it divides and it changes and it makes decisions.

Everything organises in very complex structures, so from one cell you go to trillions of cells that make up the human body, make up the different organs, the different tissues which all function together. When things go wrong during development, they are disorders. And really by studying what normally happens, we can also then see what happens when things go wrong. And then if we study that, then we can potentially make treatments for it. But the reasons why we study human development is to understand these processes, understand the basics, the basic biology, the decisions a cell make to become a tissue or an organ, and why things go wrong.

Zara

Yeah. In order to hopefully be able to intervene or…?

Mag

Exactly. Yeah. You know, the first, you know, IVF or this group of reproductive treatments - they're called assisted reproductive technologies, so ART for short, and and IVF is one of them. So IVF is when you just take an egg and you add the sperm and then you get a fertilised egg and you do this like in inside a dish or beaker. So it's not done inside the body. So that technique was actually quite revolutionary in a sense, and it was it was actually developed in the UK and the first baby -

Zara

Yeah, I’ve heard a little bit about it

Mag

Yeah, the first baby, Louise Brown, was actually born in Greater Manchester. And since then, there have been more than 8,000,000 babies born through IVF.

And I think some of the numbers said that in the States it's something like 2% of all infants are conceived with by IVF. And actually, if you probably know so the eldest 5 kids of Elon Musk are all conceived by IVF, the two daughters of Michelle Obama and Barack Obama also by IVF. So it's becomes a very frequently -

Zara

Needed. Yeah, I think it's very important. A lot more people than what some people might realise have been affected by miscarriages and birth defects. Because I know people very close to me who have been. And yeah, so it's very important.

Mag

Yeah, this work would not be possible without the help from the women. I mean really the only reason main reason why this work is being done is because these women are - they're happy to donate. They're happy to help. They believe in the science and they want to help.

Zara

Exactly, yeah. And they can see the benefits of it. Then it will encourage them, won’t it, to be in favour and contribute if they wish to or…? Yeah, maybe you can tell me about a project that you're working on.

Mag

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I'd be happy to. So at the moment I'm working on the HDBI. We are actually looking at the earliest stages of human development. So that's the first seven days after fertilisation. We are also studying what's called the cell cycle, so there are these different phases of a cell’s life. There are different phases and we try to study that in in human embryos as well.

A fertilised egg is called a zygote. And it's a really, really special cell. So there really is no cell like a zygote or even so cell like an egg. It's really probably the most unique cell in the body, but that single cell undergoes many changes. It divides many times and it creates this structure after about six days called a blastocyst. And then inside the structure there are three different cell types, so three different cells with different identities. And some of these cells, they make the placenta. Some of them make like the yolk sac, the umbilical cord and all these extra embryonic tissues. And then a very small percentage of those cells actually make the baby. So after six days, that one cell divides and becomes about 200 cells. And that of those 200, only about 10 actually make the baby. So, what we want to understand is how that one cell, how it divides and where in history of its development does it decide OK this cell is going to make the baby, this cell is going to make the placenta, this cell is going to make something else. So how are those decisions made and where are they made?

Zara

So can I just interject? So what came first then, the chicken or the egg?

Mag

Hahaha! You know, I think it's probably the egg. I think the egg came first, yeah.

Zara

Yeah, right. OK, cool. No, I appreciate everything what you're saying, and it does sound very interesting and very needed.

So what is happening on each day then of the first seven days? The important period that you study?

Mag

The sperm contains DNA from the dad and the egg also contains DNA and that's from the mom. And so when the sperm fertilises the egg that sperm head becomes a nucleus, and that's like a compartment within the cell where DNA is stored like chromosomes, DNA. And then the egg also develops a nucleus. So actually in the zygote, there are two nuclei and normally most cells in the body only have one. So it's one of the rarest times where you actually have two.

Because normally you have one nucleus where you have the mom DNA and the dad DNA together. Whereas in the zygote, they're separate. And then these nuclei, they kind of they start growing. And they come together. So they really they go from different poles of this egg they come closer together and they grow and then they're doing this, this dance where they grow and they come together and the DNA is copied.

Zara

Yeah, I get. That that's why I look a little bit like my dad, right? Just a bit.

Mag

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so the data is copied so that when that that one cell divides, it can actually partition it can give half of the mom and dad’s DNA to 1 cell and the other cell. So you go from a single cell zygote to, let's go with, two-cell embryo. It's like 2 little grapes inside a sphere. And then that again divides to four cell and they keep dividing to 8 cells, 16 cells, and then there's a process called compaction. So if you look down the microscope at an 8-cell or a 16-cell number, you can just see the individual cells. It's like looking at down the grapes in a way. And then when they compact, you don't see the borders of the cells anymore, because they get compacted into the ball of cells. It's very tight and then they start - there's a cavity being formed which is fluid-filled. And then this cavity sort of it pushes the cells to the periphery, to the borders. And then it's like if you blow up a balloon, it expands, and then you have this expansion and then you go from this compact ball of cells - it kind of balloons up and expands and creates a cavity. And all the cells are now instead of being in the centre, they're now on the periphery like that, and that is called the blastocyst. And that's around day 5. And that that blastocyst continues to expand and grows bigger and bigger. So you go from 16 and 32 cells to about 150 - 200 cells.

Zara

And do you watch this in real time?

Mag

Yeah, you can. Yeah, yeah.

Zara

I bet that's absolutely fascinating. I'd probably start crying or something, me being the arty person that I am. Like ‘Oh, my God. It's poetry in motion!’

Mag

Hahaha Yeah, yeah.

Zara

That's that's pretty cool that to be fair.

Mag

And then that blastocyst then starts to do what's called ‘hatch’. So it's really, it has like a little membrane, it's not actually membrane, it's more like a barrier. So like if you look at an egg, it's a single cell and it has a barrier like a very thick barrier that protects it. So when the sperm fertilise the egg, it actually has to go through this barrier. And when the blastocyst starts forming and expanding the barrier becomes thinner and thinner and thinner to a point where there's a hole in it. And a part of the cell starts come out. It's called hatching. And then this blastocyst can now implant, so it can now attach itself or embed itself into the endometrium, so into the uterine wall, which would then sort of develop further. To the later stages of development, so gastrulation, neurulation, organogenesis. So it actually starts forming a foetus, yeah. So this structure attaches itself to A wall and then starts growing into a baby.

Zara

And when it doesn't have anything to attach to because of your study, what does it do then?

Mag

If we cannot attach, then it's not a pregnancy, yeah.

Zara

Right so, how do you study this kind of thing? Like you're doing experiments?

Mag

We use a method called genome editing. OK. And what that means that we can actually make very precise changes to the DNA of a living cell. You can make or engineer these tools which you can programme to find a gene inside a cell and make changes. So it basically you can insert or delete DNA. It's like making changes to a paragraph in your Word document. So when the embryo develops and there are these internal changes inside the cells, where some genes get turned on and others turned off, we can add a little marker on a gene that we know is turned on when the cells that give rise to the baby are detected, when they, they form, when they already make the decision: OK, I'm going to be the cell that makes the baby. When that decision happens, we can, by changing the DNA, or by adding pieces of DNA, we can basically have a like a visual indicator.

Zara

Yeah, tangible.

Mag

Yeah, it's basically it's like detecting a this decision visually. If there is a gene that gets turned on on day three or day four, I can insert another piece of DNA into that gene that would make that gene visible. So as soon as the gene is turned on you start seeing like a not a glowing embryo, but you basically see a bit of light. So and so using its combination of genome editing, a combination of microscopy, so imaging a living embryo, we can actually then create this tree of the developmental history of the different cells. It's like how a when a tree grows, you have branching. So the same thing happens with an embryo. How you go from 1 cell to 200 cells and they kind of branch out. So it's really creating that map.

Zara

So what is your favourite fact about early human development?

Mag

A single cell divides so many times and changes so much that it creates every cell in your body. So 1 cell makes trillions of cells. From one cell! And actually, you know, baby girl girls are born with all of their eggs. So if -

Zara

Oh yeah, I've heard that one before.

Mag

Yeah! And actually so a woman who is about to have a a baby girl, she has -

Zara

A granddaughter!

Mag

Yeah, the eggs that will give rise to her granddaughter already inside.

Zara

That is cool.

Mag

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there are a lot of things, so many things happening at the same time, it really is like a universe on its own, a single cell. If you could go inside one, you’d be absolutely astonished because it's really -

Zara

Yeah, they do aliken it, don't they, to like all the stars in the sky…?

Mag

It is, yeah. There's a lot of similarities really. And just the fact that a single cell can give rise to every cell of the body and every time a cell divides, it has to copy its all of its DNA. And you know, actually a really, really interesting thing as well, you know. So some scientists have found that actually ageing starts during development.

Zara

Oh my goodness.

Mag

Yeah, so actually by understanding how an embryo develops, we might be able to also better understand how we age.

Zara

Ah, wow!

Mag

So what do you think about this this type of research and human embryos? Do you think that should be communicated more to the public?

Zara

Good question. I do think it should be communicated more. As technology advances, I'm sure that there is going to be a lot more intervention... I think as long as the intention is good with it, which you know from a lot of what you've been saying, it is - it's there to prevent disease and you know, maximise people’s quality of life. Then you know, I think it does, it needs to be communicated better to the younger generation so they can understand going forward - we want a society that is healthy and you know, resilient and strong. I think the way that you explained it to me then you know with like the you analogies like the grape and the dividing, like visual - I'm like a visual learner.

Mag

Yeah, yeah.

Zara

What do you think? How do you think, like, do you have any ideas how it could be communicated better to the public

Mag

Yeah. Trying to explain or show how this knowledge is - how it can help people individually, explaining that that this this knowledge is not just there to be tested on. So it's not just for school purposes, just like a test, but also just to help people in the future.

Zara

Yeah, it's got that real world applicability.

Mag

Exactly, yeah.

Zara

Do you think our jobs have similarities?

Mag

So in both cases you do have to use your creativity. I think you really do have to think about what you're doing. So when you're doing experiments, you do have to start with a hypothesis. You test that hypothesis. And sometimes you know, if you if you get something that's you don't expect, you have to go back to the drawing board. And actually very often you know when you're when you answer one question like that kind of leads to another five questions you want to answer. And I can imagine that maybe in music that maybe some of that might be similar. That you have an idea for something, a message, and how you want to express that message, and then you maybe you try to to record the the lyrics and the music and you think actually you know what this can be better. So I’m going to go back to the drawing board and I think going through the iterations of -

Zara

Refining

Mag

Exactly, refining. I think that process - that's definitely quite similar.

Zara

Definitely in the sense that you know, if you wanna create the best piece of art, you know, if you wanna kind of give the best expression, then you've got to be patient and keep going back to it again and again and again refining it, which is what I mentioned to you about me with kind of like, you know, the syllables and the prosodies of the music when I'm writing it. Because how I measure scientifically, whether you know, people have kind of been touched by my music like is when people come up to me and they say ‘you’ve given me goosebumps’ and it's like, right, OK, so there's a physiological response that I've elicited in you there. So I must have done something which resonated with you. And them goosebump lyrics - you know, you don't write goosebump lyrics every single time. And when you, when you are writing something that you want to be compelling, you might - the first line is like kind of setting the scene, then the second line is explanation and then it might be that third line what punches and give somebody like them goosebumps as they say. And that takes practise because you might need to swap it from line 2 to line 3 because that doesn't sound as compelling, but if you swap it that way and it hits it on that note, then that will elicit the response.

So I suppose in a way like music is kind of like science and science is kind of like music because it's still physiological, the response is still physiological, isn't it? Like if you if you hear something that you you like, then you're affected by it, aren't you?

Mag

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all about telling a story, isn't it? So you tell a story through music, and we also tell a story through, well, writing a paper, essentially.

Zara

For me, with music as well, it's not all about, like, just having a project and creating it. Like I actually default back to music and I use music as a coping mechanism. So when you was talking about energy and, you know, like your nervous system, like I believe it's connected to me in that way as well. Because I think when I'm highly stressed, sometimes, like the only way that I can regulate, is to just have a conscious stream of lyrics at that time, and then you know that might lead to something which other people will appreciate. Or it might just be a coping mechanism, but it's still there within my psyche. You know, it's something that I default to, so it's not like I'm always striving to impress people. It's actually something that I rely on for me. And like a coping mechanism for me. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I think that's quite interesting.

Mag

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah.

Alright, so Zara, should we start writing ?

Zara

Definitely. Let's do it.

Coming up with some themes.. So for me like obviously it'd be nice if we could collaborate our like cultures, if you like. Different things what I picked up on in our chat was you mentioning like telling a story. What I kind of perceive is that we're trying to tell a story that is positive. We'll work it together, because that that's obviously what you guys are doing in the lab as well – you’re working together for a better outcome. I dunno, I'm just brainstorming. What about yourself? Have you got anything?

Mag

The future of humanity really rests on a single cell. If you think about it, it's one cell that kind of created all humans. And I think that's, I mean, that's just I mean…

Zara

So straight away when you say ‘in a cell’, so like I've got a metaphor. What's come to me, so in like the UK that you refer to your lyrics as ‘bars’ and obviously you get bars in a cell door. Like as if it was a prison cell, but it’s not…

Mag

Oh yes, you do. That's right. Yes, you do. Yeah.

Zara

So get bars in a cell. So I'm just going to write them words down. It means nothing yet. It means absolutely nothing, but it will mean something. Trust me! And it will be positive.

Mag

So what kind of message would like to give? Let’s cover the message.

Zara

Yeah, this is, that's the million-dollar question there. Just that - how important the research is and how it's there to do good. And just like the advancements of like humans and how far that they've come and.. you know like how we are essentially infinitely - infinite potential. That's what it gives me.

Mag

Yeah, yeah. And and there is, you know, there are also a lot of scientists from all over the world who come together to do this. So it's this this collaboration -

Zara

- global community.

Mag

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So this open-mindedness that allows people to travel more and has allowed this this collaboration -

Zara

-like cross cultural.

Mag

Yeah, and trust from the public as well. I mean, that these women are willing to donate their eggs for science. That's such a big aspect of it.

Zara

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Like, just little things are coming to my head. Like, as the story unfolds... Infinite potential… That a cell might hold. So like obviously we could look at, you know that intertwining of science and art as in like when I said to you about it being poetic when the cells are dividing because it's like you said, it's like a dance, didn't you? That's what you said. What? What was that what you said?

Mag

Yeah, yeah. Ohh it was – when the the DNA from mum and dad, when they come together-

Zara

Yeah, yeah.

Mag

- it’s almost a dance. They kind of they come together and then they become one. And then as soon as they become unified, as soon as they kind of come together then the zygote divides and becomes two. So it's really I mean, when you look at the videos, it actually looks like a dance. It has, like almost a mind of its own. There is some art in science, and there is some science in art. So I guess it's like a ying-yang kind of…

Zara

That's it. Yeah, like that. I'm gonna write that down.

So I'd say what it's going to be about is the start of life… and that potential - what can - who can you be? Who you gonna be? What you gonna be?

Mag

Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's pretty good actually. It is the the start of life, I mean it is. I mean really you know - that's that pretty much is that is the start of any life.

Zara

Yeah, it's like The Big Bang. Of life, isn't it?

Mag

It is, it is! That's actually a good way of looking at it is a a ‘Big Bang of Life’. Yeah, because that single cell, it just kind of explodes and becomes this, this galaxy of cells and then the kind of yeah, it is like that actually. It's a good way of looking at it.

Zara

Would you like to be involved in the piece by maybe playing some guitar? I do love guitar by the way.

Mag

Yeah I would love that.

Zara

Yes, awesome! Because we might even be able to scrap the beat and just use your guitar if it's good enough.

Mag

No, no, no, no, no, no, keep the beat! Keep the beat! I can do a bit of a, a bit of lead there. I can add a bit of lead, a little solo or something like that at the end?

Zara

OK. Yeah, that'd be good.

Mag

Yeah, that’d be pretty cool.

Zara

So, honestly, Mag, it was such a like really quick decision. I just looked at a few beats and picked one. The one that I wanted was taken, so we had second best, but it's alright, we'll be fine. So I'll just literally drop it and then you can hear the makeup of it a little bit.

<Background track plays>

Zara

So, so go on, we'll do a bit of psychology then… What did you get from that? Or do you want me to go first? It's up to you.

Mag

I really like that. Normally I need to listen to the same beat over and over and over, like maybe 100 times before I actually get it. I really like that. So it has a bit of synth?

Zara

Yeah, I knew you'd like that. I knew you would like that – it’s a bit sci fi!

Mag

I like that a lot. It's quite chill, I think, but at the same time it has made me think of, you know, just, driving around in the late evening. Just… and 80s, which I really like. I did like that a lot.

Zara

Yeah, yeah, I get that. That's. Yeah, that's kind of like a literal like yeah, how it makes you feel. For me, I'm a I'm a bit more emotional than that so I think on this occasion, so for me it was like, I felt like we're like innovation. You know, like we're advancing like we're progressing. Like we're going- getting towards the goal, it made me feel like positive, like we're we're becoming, like more confident, like more powerful. But that might just be me being grandiose…

Mag

No, I think I can. Yeah, I can. I think I can. I mean, when you say it out loud and then yeah, you do feel, I really like the beat, it's really good.

Zara

Oh my God, summit’s come to me! Oh my God so it’s come to me! I'll be back in a minute…

I've got bars for a cell, but I ain't talking about a prison. I'm talking about the start of a living organism… I'm squeezing a 4 out or I'm trying to squeeze four bars out... Can you just play it one more time please? OK, I've got bars for a cell, but I ain't talking about a prison. I'm talking about the start of a living organism. I got DNA dancing like your parents in the kitchen. Infinite potential. Best believe that you're winning.

That's all I've got! I'm sorry, I thought - did you even understand it? Thank you!

Mag

Yeah, that's pretty good actually. I was quite impressed there. Wow.

Zara

So so it basically says I've got bars for a cell, but I ain't talking about a prison. I'm talking about the start of a living organism. DNA dancing like your parents in the kitchen. Infinite potential. Best believe that you're winning.

Mag

That sounds pretty good. I think it's a really good, really good start.

Zara

Cool, thank you. Thank you for your time, much appreciated.

Mag

No thank you! It was, it was. It was a lot of fun. This is something we don't normally do. So it was it was good. Really, really great experience.

Zara

Awesome. Thank you!

Mag

Thank you!

Musical piece (Zara)

Science in the art, where the art, where the science? Like what? Woahhhh

Let’s do this!

Magomet, where you at with that guitar? Let's have it. Come on.

Is it the science from the art or the art from the science?

Does it really matter when we're forming an alliance?

Both fierce with a passion, setting hearts on fire, many dedicate their lives, contribute and inspire.

Bars for the cell but I ain't talking about a prison, talking about the start of a living organism.

DNA dancing like your parents in the kitchen.

Infinite potential, infinite wisdom.

Rolling with the scientists, looking for the cure, getting closer to finding it.

Cracking that code like a hieroglyph, splitting that cell and dividing it, multiplying it.

Zarie got the code to the setlist. Magomet got the code to genetics.

We building them blocks like Tetris.

So, you know, together we gonna get this.

I’m a beast on the microphone, but Mag a beast at the microscope.

When you put on that white coat, get in that lab and look at that zygote, you know.

Is it the science or the art, or the art from the science?

Does it really matter when we're forming an alliance?

Both fierce, with the passion setting hearts on fire, many dedicate their lives, contribute and inspire.

Bars for the cell but I ain’t talking about a prison, talking about the start of a living organism

DNA dancing like your parents in the kitchen.

Infinite potential, infinite, infinite, infinite, infinite….

Oneda

Wow! I wasn't expecting Mag to play the guitar like that. That was dope!

Thank you for listening to Made the Same Way. Next time you'll hear all about how the blood and immune system develops as another artist and scientist come together to explore science in a brand new way.

Subscribe to Made the Same Way so that you never miss an episode. And please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts to help others find us. Made the Same Way is a Reform Radio production for HDBI, which is funded by Wellcome. It was produced by Olivia Swift, with help from Jamie Green.

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