HDBI Podcast

Podcast transcript: Made the Same Way

Episode 4: Our bodies are galaxies

Oneda

You're listening to Made the Same Way the podcast for those who are curious about how we humans are made. My name is Oneda. I'm a rapper, producer and songwriter from Manchester, and in this series we're discovering how we get from a fertilised egg to a fully functioning human being. To answer this, I've teamed up with HDBI - that's the human developmental biology initiative - to explore science in a brand new way. Each episode we bring together one emerging artist and one knowledgeable researcher to discuss science, life and music, and at the end of each episode, the pair will have a limited amount of time to collaborate on an original piece inspired by their conversation.

Emily

Right now, every second your blood is making 3,000,000 cells.

Olivia

Wow.

Oneda

In this episode, Emily, a stem cell researcher, gets to know Olivia, AKA rapper Frequency3.

Olivia

Hi, Emily. It's nice to meet you. How are you doing?

Emily

Hi, it's nice to meet you too.

Oneda

The pair are chatting about how our blood and immune system develop before we're born, the unimaginable number of cells in our body and the importance of all of this in how we grow and age.

Olivia

I was wondering, can you tell me... can you describe your job to me and what you do?

Emily

Yeah. So, I'm what we call a post-doctoral scientist, which just means that I have a PhD and I am a researcher and I work in a lab at the University of Cambridge. How about you? Can you describe what you do? I've never really had a chat with a musician before, if I'm honest.

Olivia

Yeah, sure. So I guess majority of my time now is put towards making music. I’m just in the process of making a song at the moment that reflects the past year of my life, from being an active host and DJ and dancer and to kind of waking up one day with really bad nerve pain down both of my legs and not being able to walk without crutches cause I've been like this for over a year now.

Emily

Wow, that's quite the change in your life.

Olivia

Yeah, it's a huge change and a huge shift for so many various reasons, and I still don't have a diagnosis ever. So that at times can drive you insane too, but music for me is my serenity and helps me process what I'm feeling or whatever I'm going through, so I just want to be able to make music that also impacts others.

Emily

That's really nice. I think you’re kind of... you're being creative... creating music is like your serenity. It is something I can relate to because, you know, like when I want my peace, I go and like I like to bake, I like to sew. And it's like being creative, I can kind of like switch off other things and just like focus in on. So I can't say I've made music, but I feel like you've got the same like creative outlet.

Olivia

Yeah, 100%. For me, it's like create creativity, you can be creative in so many ways. For me, it's almost like a state of mind. You are accessing a different part of your brain when you're creative compared to when you're trying to be logical and you know, maybe do some of the work that you do on a daily basis, for example. So we're probably actually in totally different states of minds as well for large amounts of times of the day, does that make sense?

Emily

Yeah, it does, but I'd say like there is some sort of creativity in science and just I think it's about maybe more in this aspect of like thinking outside of the box. We read papers and journals written by other people, and if you just follow what they've done, you're not, like, innovating, you're not changing anything, you're not discovering anything new. So it's like, you know, there is some sort of creativeness in that. And I think that's one of the things I like about it is you've got to think outside the box sometimes.

Olivia

I like that I never actually thought about science in that way.

Emily

Yeah. You mentioned science. Have you ever studied science? Like, do you have an interest in science?

Olivia

I studied science at GCSE, that's probably about as far, but to be honest I did do A-level PE and that was massively science. It was chemistry, biology, physics, sports psychology...so I did really enjoy that because at the time I was a national level trampolinists too, so it really helped me understand physiologically what is going on inside of my body, but I just don’t know if I think like a scientist...but do scientists think in a certain way, I don't know.

Emily

I don't know and I think that it would be like saying, uh, do all musicians think the same? Probably not, you know? So like, there's different types of scientists, and like, scientist is such a broad spectrum right? Like, yeah, we, as you said, physics, chemistry, biology. And within biology, we have huge differences in what we do. So, I'm looking at human blood cells, whereas other people can be looking at plants and how, like ecosystems are working. I think it’s like how one brain works, so maybe my brain isn't the same as other scientists, but I think that variety is what's important, right?

Olivia

100% and I guess it's almost like when you talk about biology and physics and the different types of sciences, it's almost like talking about the different genres as well that exist, and like you know, it's beneficial to crossover into other genres and learn about those genres because it just helps you further understand the foundations of music. But I did want to ask you as well, like, what's your expectation of talking to a musician? ‘Cause you said you haven't spoken to one before really, so...?

Emily

I think it's just sort of like hearing the more creative aspects, and also, you know, this podcast was the aim of sort of producing a piece of music based on, you know, our conversation in science and I just thought that was... I mean, to be honest, something I can't imagine right? Like I can't imagine like listening to something that's about what you know, I do my lab in the day and I'll be honest and say that I did look you up beforehand and listen to your music. And I was like, oh, it's really cool. It's like poetry. I really enjoyed it.

Olivia

I categorise myself as a hip-hop rapper because of the place that I write from. So you know how you said it's almost like poetry and actually if you listen to a lot of old school hip hop, the rap is poetry. Almost like what underground, old school hip hop represents is living within a struggle or facing some kind of adversity and using music to almost find joy around that, or escape that, or even explore it, or explore and process your own emotions, and I think like for myself, I found, well, I'm actually doing what these people were doing before hip hop was even a genre. And that's how I'm able to categorise myself in hip hop.

Emily

We probably come from quite different worlds, but like I think when you listen to songs, there are things that you can relate to and what people are saying you're like, oh, actually like, you know, everyone goes to the same sort of feelings and we have the same ups and downs and issues in our lives and you know, I think I'd say music definitely speaks to me in that way relating to life experiences and you know, happiness and sadness.

Olivia

Yeah, 100%.

Emily

So, what got you interested in like joining this project and sort of, learning more about HDBI research?

Olivia

I guess more so it's the curiosity that drew me to it. And also I like a challenge because I don't think without this I would write about science necessarily. I'd more so write about maybe feeling or experiences, but I'm intrigued on how you can almost use music as a way to translate, I guess maybe scientific words or terms or... yeah, it's something new.

Emily

It's interesting that you said you're curious and you like challenges. Are you sure you weren't a scientist in a previous life?

Olivia

Maybe I am low key, because nobody knows. So yeah, I'm just excited to learn.

[Short Made the Same Way musical riff plays]

What area of human development do you study in particular?

Emily

Say we focus on the blood and immune system, so this is your blood cells that carry oxygen around the body and fight infections, as well as sort of the stem cells that produce all those cells. So it's a focus on your whole circulation and how it develops from those few cells you start out as an embryo through to being an adult with litres of blood in your body.

Olivia

Can you explain how we develop our blood and immune system, and at what point in the process what happens and how does it happen?

Emily

Yes. So the blood system is quite complicated, as you might imagine. Your blood system is obviously needed by every single organ in your body because all your organs,they need oxygen and they need nutrients, but they also need all their waste taking away. So the blood system does all that, but it also harbours your immune cells. So those are the cells that fight infection and fix you and keep your oxygen going and clear out all the waste, so it has a massive role. When I sort of started to get into developmental biology, which is what HDBI is about, I hadn't really gone into these early stages and I found out that your blood system starts at two to three weeks post conception. So that's when you're just this tiny little ball of cells - your blood system is already starting to develop, and that is in the yolk sack. So that's sort of that kind of sack that goes round the embryo. At first, it's mostly just red cells that develop. So, they're the ones that carry oxygen because as your systems start to develop, obviously we need to start moving oxygen around those cells, ‘cause all the cells need oxygen. So that's what happens first and then we call that the primitive wave, so it's mostly just red cells. About four weeks post-conception - so still, you're tiny, tiny, tiny - there's not really all the systems in place yet, we have what’s called the definitive wave. So this is where we start to get more red cells, but also white cells. So they're the ones that sort of fight infection and things. And also at this point we have what we would call now hematopoietic stem cells. And that just means blood stem cells. Have you ever heard of stem cells before?

Olivia

Yes, I have.

Emily

Your blood stem cells can make any blood cell type in your body, so these are cell type that are going to maintain your blood through your entire life. And just to like, put that into perspective right now, every second your blood is making 3,000,000 cells.

Olivia

Wow.

Emily

So those cells that start off in this little tiny embryo that's only a few weeks old, are going to make these stem cells, and those will make more stem cells slowly across your life and that's what's going to maintain your blood from before you're born all the way through to when you die. So your blood is mostly made in your bone marrow and then migrates out into your circulatory system, and then it start, it gets into the bone marrow about 11 weeks post-conception, but by 20 weeks it's like where it mainly produces, because actually in an embryo it starts off more in the foetal liver, whereas in an adult, the liver isn't really a contributor to making blood.

Olivia

And talking of like changes in the body, like what has made you want to study the healthy cells rather than the not so healthy ones or the unhealthy cells?

Emily

Yeah, I think this is like really important for me. So studying how healthy blood develop kind of gives us a really good solid stone that we can build on to understand disease. So, if I want to understand what goes wrong in disease, for example, I mentioned leukaemia and there might be mutation, but how do I know that that's a mutation and it's not just normal if I don't know how it is normally? So you need to understand what's going on and how the blood gets through your life in a healthy manner, to understand where are the things going wrong. So if you think of the DNA as a big recipe book, and then we study RNA, which is kind of more like single recipes within that. And then within that we look at genes, so maybe we think of them as ingredients. So if I want to understand why my recipe tastes bad, I need to understand and have known how it tastes good and I can maybe target it. So there have been some successful gene therapies, for example, I don't know if you heard of this, but people who have sickle cell anaemia, which is an issue with their red blood cells, is caused by 1 little gene. So one little ingredient within this massive recipe book that is your body and we've been able to like well. I say we as scientists, I have not personally involved in this, go in and sort of change that back to what it should be, and then people will have, you know, seen the benefit of that in their blood cells.

Olivia

Funnily enough as well, as an artist, it's really important to do that too. Like, you can tell artists who haven't learned their foundations and they're out there, and the more you can understand your foundations, the better you can...the better you can be at what you're trying to do, whether that is science, whether it's dance, whether it's music, foundations are vital.

Emily

Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it in terms of foundations. It's true in many aspects of your life. You've got to lay down... I mean, building a house if you don't lay down good foundations... We're not going to be living under roofs, we're going to be amongst the rubble.

Olivia

Yes, exactly that. Why do you choose to study this? You've spoken about like, you know, how understanding the foundation and how healthy healthy blood cells or healthy cells are made. And so where does that passion to want to know more about this and discover and be curious come from?

Emily

The blood is so important to every aspect of being a human. So if our blood system fails, our brains gonna, you know, it's the brain, heart, liver, every part, all our muscles...we need all that nutrients and oxygen and we need it all to be functioning properly and we need our immune system not to attack ourselves as well. So lots of autoimmune diseases, right? Like that's when your body attacks itself, and that's all immune cells within the blood. And I just think like although I work on what I would call fundamental research, my research will be the foundation that other people build their research on and what I like to believe it will make difference in people's lives. So maybe something I've discovered and written about or the way I've done it has sparked someone else's thoughts and they thought maybe I should apply that to my whatever disease I'm studying and look at this from a different way or use what I've found and say ‘how is that involved in my disease model?’. So though it's not direct, I feel like that's still human biology and stem cell science and looking at the blood at a fundamental level is still having effects beyond me, and I think that's... that's an exciting prospect.

Olivia

Yeah, 100%, 100%. I think it's interesting as well because you know how I mentioned about doing A-level PE, we did actually learn about blood and its journey around the body like from the... is it the left atrium in the heart to the right or maybe it's the other way round. I don't even know. But this even the way that the blood kind of replenishes your... like you was talking about, you know, replenishes the oxygen and gets rid of the toxins. Like the body really is an incredible thing. And I think what I've learned about it as well is that it's just important to care for your own body and your mind, and care for them equally as well. I wanted to ask as well, what is your favourite fact about blood and immune development?

Emily

I think about development and blood would be the one that I've already mentioned to you is that blood starts from 2 weeks post-conception. So ,you already have cells that we'd identify as blood cells that early on. I think that...I mean, when I read that, it blew my mind so I find that really fascinating. And then through to just sort of maybe not thinking about development, just thinking about blood, the fact that we make 3 million new blood cells every second. Like, I have seen a tube of three million cells in it and I still can't comprehend how our body is doing that every second, so I think that's really fascinating.

Olivia

I have a question, how do you count that many cells?

Emily

Either we have fancy machines or you can dilute it out. So I might take a little bit of the cells and then dilute it out and then we put it on these, what we call hemocytometers. So I mix it with this blue dye.

Olivia

Right

Emily

And then I can look at it under a microscope under a slide and sort of count how many cells I see and then do the maths backwards to say like OK I took one tent of the cells I had and can I count that up? I mean, obviously if it's three million, we don't take a tenth, but you know that sort of idea. So I'd probably only be counting in the region of like 150 cells, but then I'd be able to count backwards and work out how many cells were actually there.

Olivia

Which...what's your favourite cell?

Emily

I love red blood cells, cause that's where lots of my research focuses. How we get from stem cells to maintain red cells. My research mostly focuses on how the connection happens between stem cells and mature cells and I kind of actually focus on how red cells and certain type of immune cells called mast cells and a cell called megakaryocytes, which makes the platelets that sort of cause clotting... They're often made together, and I want to understand the dynamics of that and whether every cell, that every end point and start point is the same journey or where we sometimes we get sort of increases and then drops and there's different dynamics and different routes maybe between our starting stem cells than those end type of cells. So a lot of my research focusses in on that.

Olivia

What is the overall aim of doing all of this research? Or is there a particular goal that you are kind of working towards as a community to, yeah, to reach?

Emily

I think that's a massive question, and maybe if you ask different people, they'd say different things. But for me, I think my big question is how do our stem cells change? So like if I’d say the ones that are in our embryo and development are probably the best blood stem cells and how are those changed to become the how they are in so cord blood - so just the point of birth - how are they different in children, adults, elderly people? And is there anything we can do to reverse some of the ageing process within our blood. So we know we have these changes and we know that older people will develop, are more likely to develop leukemias and stuff, but is there something that we could go in and make an adaptation for, and whether that's something and I’m not necessarily talking about genes. Maybe it's a certain vitamin is better to maintain a certain thing, or there's certain supplement or there's... you know, there’s any number of things that could potentially help. So, either reverse the ageing process so we don't get so many people with leukaemia. But is there something we could do to try and prevent that? And I think that is a massive ask and that's why we're using sort of looking at development because we think that's sort of the best place to start to see the sort of... I don't want to say perfect, but the sort of the best that maybe blood stem cells can offer. And yeah, understanding that.

Olivia

Great. I look forward to seeing you here, same place, same time, thirty years time, with the answers. And so, to finish us off after this great conversation, I wanted to ask what... what preoccupies your brain day to day and, you know, how do you... how do you find your answers? But also, I guess like what also drives you to wanna do something like this?

Emily

I think the driving thing is just... I would say I have the same thing as you. So I'd say I'm curious and I like challenges.

Olivia

Okay

Emily

And I like to ask questions like, you know, I just like to ask questions. Why is this happening? Why? Why does it work this way? Why? Why? Why? So, I do come from a bit of scientific background. My dad was a brewer and my mum, she had a PhD in microbiology. So, we used to do mini science experiments in the kitchen. So like we'd be blowing up balloons with the carbon dioxide made from yeast and that kind of like science has been all, you know, those questions, you know, asking, oh, which and why and why would this be happening has been instilled in me from a young age.

Olivia

Yeah. No, that sounds... that sounds good. And I think it almost feels like... How do I describe this? It's almost like... it's like growing up with me... for like me growing up, I was always like dancing and singing or like singing along to High School Musical and performing and all of that stuff, and from hearing you say, you know, you was doing science experiments with your mum and stuff... It's almost like, really what we're interested in as we’re younger will end up doing eventually, and I actually think music helped me with the activeness of my brain, of always wanting to know why, because almost when you put it in a track, you might not get the answer, but you've released that energy of like, why? Why? Why? And I guess when you're doing an experiment or something and you see the result and even if it's not the result you wanted you at least have some kind of answer to your whys now or you know. So I think naturally, as human beings, we are curious and we always want to know why or what's going on, especially me being on crutches. Everyone wants to know why and what I done, and there's this assumption that there must be an answer and a reason to everything and I guess, talking of that, what... what do you do when you can't find an answer or a reason for something?

Emily

I think we just asked a lot of other questions. Always start to think outside the box. So I think if I was stuck in the lab and I was like, OK, I asked my question, I've done some experiments and as you said, the result wasn't what I was expecting. Yeah, but that's still the result. Like if I've done, I think if you think back to GCSE right, remember that you have to do experiments again and again to make sure your results are solid, and you have to do statistics and all these sort of things. So if you do it, you know you've run it three times and it always the same, but it's not what you thought then you have to kind of like think bigger and think of different angles. So maybe start reading. So I'll be like, OK, well maybe it's doing something else that I need to read about, and then I'll start talking to people. I think that is one of the big things in science is collaboration. So that's kind of how we learn like we're always looking for someone to say ‘Oh, but have you ever thought of looking at it from the opposite angle?’ and you go oh, why did I not think of that?

Olivia

100% feel like I could just sit here and listen to you talk all day about it to be honest. Actually makes me want to be a scientist, in the sense of just the curiosity and the questioning, and I'm almost like the idea that you have to put your ego aside at times to... to not be correct, and almost like always try to be...fair with your own self and your own bias and then very honest with things like even if you don't wanna admit that maybe this isn't going how you wanted it to go, you have to because it's not about you, it's about the science, if that makes sense.

Emily

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, that's one of the big, big moments in all of our...as a scientist, in our lives when we sort of have a project, we feel like it's sort of almost a whole project and we take it to a conference and we show it to other scientists. And you know, there can be hundreds of people there and you give a talk and you're really pleased, and then someone asks you a question and you're like, I haven't thought of that.

Olivia

Yeah

Emily

You've got to be open to the idea that other people's brains work in different ways. So they're gonna ask you different questions. And they're gonna ask you things you don't know, and some of the questions you can answer and you do know, but there are gonna be questions you go, ‘yeah, that is an excellent question and I'm going to spend the next six months of my life answering it’ cause that's just like... that's just science, right, like. Those collaborations is how science moves forward as well. Like, all the talking and the discussing and bringing innew brains into the same, sort of, project is what moves our science forward.

Olivia

And I think we saw that globally as well with 2020 and stuff there, but we won't, we won't go too far into that. But I think it just shows the importance of collaboration worldwide in... in whatever we're doing really, because if we're all trying to move forward and understand how we exist, why we exist, you know all of these questions that we have, then the best way to do that I think is collectively because of all of the things that you've mentioned.

[Short Made the Same Way musical riff plays]

So, Emily, do you want to get to creating the track and giving it a go?

Emily

Yeah, that'd be great. So, what is your usual process like? How... how do you make music?

Olivia

Good question. So my favourite way, let me say cause I can create in in different ways, but my favourite way is to kind of like have a beat on instrumental and freestyle cause freestyling on the beat helps me find my flow and words and bend words and... and manipulate words to fit how I want them to fit. But I think for today I'm happy to try doing some writing, see what we can do and also for me it's about expanding the creative mind. So, if we talk about cells like...what else can we connect cells to in life, either metaphorically or literally?

Emily

So is there any, like, particular parts of what we talked about that would inspire some lyrics?

Olivia

Yeah. I think for me... I think for this track it would be great to get some facts in that you find exciting. So like even the 3 million new blood cells every second. Even like the importance of stem cells, but then also how stem cells are like the home of many cells, as well.

Emily

I think one nice thing would be to include is like stem cells have the potential to become lots of different types of cells, basically to become anything, and that's all to do with like internal and external factors. And it's a bit like people. Like, we all have the potential to become all sorts of different people and different careers and lots of factors, both genetic and external, you know our friends and our schools and where we live and the music we listen to is all affecting that, so like we are shaped by our surroundings. But a smaller level, we have billions of cells who are also being affected by the same stuff, just on a micro scale rather than on a whole organism scale. I think that's kind of interesting. The idea of stem cells’ potential.

Olivia

Yeah, what you've just said then has taken my head into like a world of thought, but I think... I think, yeah, there's definitely something to connect there in regards to making people recognise that science isn't so far away from them as well, especially when it's within your body. But really, as well, and I think in this life that we live, everything can kind of connect eventually and it seems like this is a space for connection as well. So I've gone for beats where there's not too much going on, so you can really take in the lyrics over the beat. There, I can show it to you and then I've got one already that I personally I'm vibing with straight away. However, I'm happy to like work with whatever you're comfortable with too.

Emily

No, I'm happy to listen to the beats.

Olivia

Awesome. Let's do it.

[Track plays]

This one is funky.

Emily

Yeah I was about to say, this one’s funky.

Olivia

Make people feel good about their bodies.

[Different track plays]

This one's my personal favourite.

[Track continues]

When this came on, I came up with this. It's like 2 bars, so I’ll show it to you so you can hear what flow I was thinking with this.

[Rapping over the same track] Yeah, yeah, yo. Blood and immunity. This seems kind of new to me. Spoke with a scientist to get to know a fuller me.... yeah that’s all...

Emily

I like it. It’s cool.

Olivia

But I was thinking, maybe even as a bit of a chorus thing like [rapping] Blood and immunity, this thing’s kinda new to me [continues to riff]

But a little bit like hooky.

Emily

Yeah.

Olivia

So yeah, what are you thinking?

Emily

I’m very happy to go with the one that you liked. You know, if that sparked your creative interest, then I think that’s probably a nice place to start, right?

Olivia

Yeah, yeah, awesome. That sounds good.

Emily

I like the idea of having a little hook. So it's just like little things that you've learned and then the hook.

Olivia

Awesome. I like the ideas of that as well. I think it's a bit more fun in terms of like... put in, we can maybe put a fact in the hook or you know... Right, just bear with me. Let me have, like, a couple of minutes to think by myself, and then I'll come back with some proper words.

[Olivia freestyle rapping] and that we're all familiar familiar in the ways I'm trying to figure out my cells, maybe even know just what they do and how they cast the spell. From my own words, I'm just back to the way that I really like to work what they've taught us, never really questioned it, only really thought what I needed. Like I mentioned it mentioned this. Fundamentally, I know I'm trying to be a better me, but it's kind of hard when my stem cells don't wanna see me see me easy free me. Trying to make a way like every single day and did you know? Did you know?

[Speaking] I didn’t listen to the beat this far, and this is new to me [both laugh]

It's been a... it's been a blessing all to talk to you and thank you for, yeah, just explaining everything and answering all my questions that I had.

Emily

Yeah, no worries.

Olivia

Bye.

Emily

OK, bye!

Musical piece [Olivia]

Blood and immunity.

This seems kind of new to me,

Spoke with a scientist to get to know a fuller me.

Funnily, I learned a lot about our similarities

We earn different salaries, but our bodies are galaxies

Navigated by ourselves, developing, growing, and learning like ourselves.

Such a blessing, how it works on its own. From being a baby to being grown.

Stem cells are the mothers.

Birth from the bone marrow, figure of a pharaoh

So much potential, the body’s influential

Did you know that our blood is an organ too?

Who knew? Not I but I learned all cells gather in the plasma to make your blood

They hold on to memory of what's bad or good

White blood cells help us fight infections, so we feel bright

Red blood cells are shaped like a donut, but without the bite

Brings us oxygen day and night all these links like it’s all parallel inside and out

You can't run or hide or even deny how amazing our bodies are

They help us survive as we try to thrive day and night

Blood and immunity.

This seems kind of new to me,

Spoke with a scientist to get to know a fuller me.

Funnily, I learned a lot about our similarities

We earn different salaries, but our bodies are galaxies

Navigated by ourselves, developing, growing, and learning like ourselves.

Such a blessing, how it works on its own, from being a baby to being grown

Blood and immunity.

This seems kind of new to me,

Spoke with a scientist to get to know a fuller me.

Funnily, I learned a lot about our similarities

We earn different salaries, but our bodies are galaxies

Navigated by ourselves, developing, growing, and learning like ourselves.

Such a blessing, how it works on its own, from being a baby to being grown

[Music fades]

[A short Made the Same Way riff plays]

Oneda

You've been listening to Made the Same Way. Thank you for listening. Next time we're delving into our lungs and hearts. How do they develop? What happens when? And how is it all happening before we've taken our first breath? Subscribe to Made the Same Way so that you never miss an episode. And please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts to help others find them. Made the Same Way is a Reform Radio production for HDBI, which is funded by Wellcome. It was produced by Olivia Swift with help from Jamie Green.

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